Curse

arredondo · Aug 03, 2005, 11:41 PM // 23:41

The effects are tremendous because the ratio to casters (4) and non-casters (2) is pretty large. Maybe ANet can acheive the same effectiveness of Ranger squads by changing things in a different way, but as a Mesmer primary, I'm glad they can make the spell chuckers play by their rules. I think in time people will find some consistent answers.

I'll bet Anet is laughing their butts off at all these anti-NR threads because they've hidden the answer so well and people are still searching. If THEY thought it should be nerfed (like a few other skills have been in the past few months), wouldn't they have changed it? Maybe in the end they'll adjust it, but I kinda hope that people only need to keep working on unique answers. Six months from now, it'll be great to look back and laugh at the nerf threads if some teams out there find something consistent that works. Who knows?

BrotherReins · Aug 03, 2005, 11:42 PM // 23:42

scaphism i pretty much get the picture, although your saying that making it elite is a cop-out is kind of a slap in the face to a.net because that was kind of the "solution" they applied mid-beta testing.

Orochim4ru · Aug 03, 2005, 11:43 PM // 23:43

There are no unique answers besides running no enchants or hexes, which gimps casters and promotes 5 warrior and 5 ranger teams.

arredondo · Aug 03, 2005, 11:47 PM // 23:47

But isn't it easy to gimp a Warrior dominate team? Without Spirit Spamming, isn't it easy to gimp a Ranger dominant team? Maybe this three way gimp is meant to be.

Scaphism · Aug 03, 2005, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrotherReins

scaphism i pretty much get the picture, although your saying that making it elite is a cop-out is kind of a slap in the face to a.net because that was kind of the "solution" they applied mid-beta testing.

Slap away then. I'm still convinced it's a lazy balancing mechanic. I've accepted that it's here to stay, but that makes it no less odious. It's akin to working out in a gym for years- you learn to ignore the smell.

Orochim4ru · Aug 03, 2005, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

But isn't it easy to gimp a Warrior dominate team

No, because the warriors can run secondaries. W/R + nature's renewal doesn't hurt the warrior team at all, and a W/N with rigor mortis removes most of the non-enchant methods of defending vs. warriors. The other 3 can be whatever you want.

Quote:

Maybe this three way gimp is meant to be.

casters isn't a single group. its 2/3 of the character classes in the game. Dropping 2 lines from mes, 2 lines from necro, all energy maintainment from ele and all of prot, the best of smite, and some of heal with one skill isn't the same as saying "well, you can gimp warriors too".

Diablo · Aug 03, 2005, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orochim4ru

Soul leech + backfire = no emo smiting. Nr spam means no emo smiting. Rend enchant after ether renewal? No emo smiting. I could go on, but you're starting to get the picture here. Focused shatter enchants, for example, make the E/Mo smiter totally useless, but people aren't bringing mesmers or alterior enchant removal due to....

NR.

Actually Backfire doesn't really help much against El/Mo smiters with the right build. With enough enchants one them they will heal themselfs for 120+ with every spam. So Backfire will do too little damage to be threat.

Diversion is alot more effective.

Xellos · Aug 04, 2005, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarus

Probably not the best example considering how abusive the typical ether renewal + zealots fire smite build is at the moment. Basically you're complaning that your overly powered smite build is being destroyed by an overly powered counter so I can't really sympathize there. Both NR and the ether renewal + smite build need to be balanced better. As a matter of fact NR might be the only thing keeping smite builds remotely in check at the moment. I'm no Ensign or Zrave so I can't really back that up. Just a hunch.

I can't really see Smite being dominant. Even during the age where NR was not used alot, and Smite was just introduced in halls with the damn Bal Aura stack, some of us could wipe any smiter off the hall with the current flavour of Air Gank. Not sure about GvG, but its power is probably proportional to the map.

BrotherReins · Aug 04, 2005, 12:09 AM // 00:09

now that i remember, you guys can't really say you weren't asking for it with that god damned 8 people stacking balthazar's aura on someone doing 200+dps. how did you expect someone to counter that?

EmperorTippy · Aug 04, 2005, 12:16 AM // 00:16

it's called Protective spirit or protective bond and then while those are up use rend or the like to take off balthazar's aura. Or use chillblains (doesn't work so well vs. enchant stacking though as it just removes chaff). Or run away from them and aura will do nothing. Or group them and drop 5 meteror showers on their head. Or any number of other counters, many of which can be worked into other builds without much trouble.

If you haven't made a build specifically to counter NR/spirit spam than you can't win against them if they are anygood at all.

Orochim4ru · Aug 04, 2005, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Actually Backfire doesn't really help much against El/Mo smiters with the right build

Hence why i said backfire + soul leech, and those builds self smite, making them largely useless for providing real dmg. The most lethal builds are the ones that spam heals on warriors, netting near to 100% hit efficiency. In those builds, having ether renewal and aura of restoration nets you around 80-100 hp per cast, which is still 60-40 dps against the smiter. this jumps to around 100 to -80 dps with both, but no one uses either soul leech or backfire due to NR, hence my point.

Quote:

it's called Protective spirit or protective bond and then while those are up use rend or the like to take off balthazar's aura

200dps was coming from many 28dps casts of aura. Heal seed was the only counter.

EmperorTippy · Aug 04, 2005, 12:20 AM // 00:20

^^
Sorry I didn't PvP much while balth's aura was broken. The rest of it works though as I have tested that.

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Scaphism · Aug 04, 2005, 12:21 AM // 00:21

You're going to tell us "we asked for it"?
Grow up.

Now, let's talk about how the situation was resolved:
ANet saw people stacking multiple copies of Balth's Aura onto one target and changed the game so that multiple copies couldn't "stack".

That's one of the most recent skill balance changes I can remember. (Can't think of any others off-hand, but I could have forgotten.)

To suggest that Nature's Renewal was implemented to counter stacked copies of Balthazar's Aura is laughable at best. Or do you like to solve all your problems with unwieldy sledgehammers?

BrotherReins · Aug 04, 2005, 12:24 AM // 00:24

no, i doubt that's its specific reason but that seems like it would have been a very viable counter to an obviously broken game mechanic. and that's bullshit itself, anyway, because i remember a.net saying stacking multiple copies of balthazar's aura was "Working as intended" when the original topic was brought up over at vnboards.

Silmor · Aug 04, 2005, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Nature's Renewal's description has always claimed it did what it currently does, but it simply used to be bugged so it wasn't a problem. The enchantment/hex removal part of it worked rather sporadically before which made it unreliable and thus ignoreable, then they started work on it and it got infinite range somehow, now it works as it was originally advertised and as it turns out, it's rather unbalanced without the 5% death penalty mechanism it was originally designed with.

As far as it's current usefulness goes, it's a pretty 'new' skill among the pack since it only recently started working as advertised, and I believe they botched the balance testing for it, if they did any of it at all - it should've gotten a rebalancing when the DP mechanism was dropped for spirits, but since it didn't work properly then it was overlooked. Pure speculation, but it might be an explanation of the current state of affairs - unfortunately that doesn't help anyone.

I'm surprised this thread wasn't nuked outright though. There's plenty of threads where Nature's Renewal was being discussed in, and the OP was pure uninformed flamebait - maybe since actual clue was added by others, the more worthwhile snippets can be merged with one of the existing threads about it?

Tigris Of Gaul · Aug 04, 2005, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

You're going to tell us "we asked for it"?
Grow up.

Now, let's talk about how the situation was resolved:
ANet saw people stacking multiple copies of Balth's Aura onto one target and changed the game so that multiple copies couldn't "stack".

That's one of the most recent skill balance changes I can remember. (Can't think of any others off-hand, but I could have forgotten.)

To suggest that Nature's Renewal was implemented to counter stacked copies of Balthazar's Aura is laughable at best. Or do you like to solve all your problems with unwieldy sledgehammers?

It wasn't really changed was it? It was moreso fixed, because enchantments don't stack.

BrotherReins · Aug 04, 2005, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

Nature's Renewal's description has always claimed it did what it currently does, but it simply used to be bugged so it wasn't a problem. The enchantment/hex removal part of it worked rather sporadically before which made it unreliable and thus ignoreable, then they started work on it and it got infinite range somehow, now it works as it was originally advertised and as it turns out, it's rather unbalanced without the 5% death penalty mechanism it was originally designed with.

As far as it's current usefulness goes, it's a pretty 'new' skill among the pack since it only recently started working as advertised, and I believe they botched the balance testing for it, if they did any of it at all - it should've gotten a rebalancing when the DP mechanism was dropped for spirits, but since it didn't work properly then it was overlooked. Pure speculation, but it might be an explanation of the current state of affairs - unfortunately that doesn't help anyone.

I'm surprised this thread wasn't nuked outright though. There's plenty of threads where Nature's Renewal was being discussed in, and the OP was pure uninformed flamebait - maybe since actual clue was added by others, the more worthwhile snippets can be merged with one of the existing threads about it?

i wasn't trying to start a fight.

hydrak · Aug 04, 2005, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Most people who are crying about NR are typically lazy people who don't want to find a way to deal with NR. I heard far too many cries about this from below average teams in tombs. Most good teams in tombs never say a single word about NR regardless winning or losing.

Here are a few little hints for all you who are crying about NR. NR affects everyone including the one spamming it; I hope this little fact is obvious to everyone who is crying. And don't build your team entirely based on enchantments and hexs. Try building a balanced team, maybe you'll like it.

EDIT: I appologize in advance if I sound a bit harsh, but I am tired of hearing all the complaints about NR in tombs from one-dimensional teams.

Aug 04, 2005, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Too many people making false claims and dont know how balance works, or what "overpowered" refers to. Gg topic.

Kishin · Aug 04, 2005, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by hydrak

Most people who are crying about NR are typically lazy people who don't want to find a way to deal with NR. I heard far too many cries about this from below average teams in tombs. Most good teams in tombs never say a single word about NR regardless winning or losing.

Here are a few little hints for all you who are crying about NR. NR affects everyone including the one spamming it; I hope this little fact is obvious to everyone who is crying. And don't build your team entirely based on enchantments and hexs. Try building a balanced team, maybe you'll like it.

Yes, yes, we know. Build around Nature's Renewal, so that it doesn't effect us! ...Wait a minute, we may as run Nature's Renewal ourselves to screw those of us who weren't thinking the same thing. As has been said thousands of time before, you shouldn't have to become a NR build to beat one.

You were wrong from line 1. A large number of the people complaining/pointing out the imbalance in Nature's Renewal are members of top guilds, and testers.